The United States of America versus The State of Arizona

[GrimFinger]

Here is a link to the lawsuit recently filed by the Federal government against the State of Arizona and that state's governor:

http://grimfinger.net/usa_v_arizona.pdf

[Bytor of the Snowdogs]

If the Feds would enforce the laws they themselves have produced, then there wouldn't be the need for such frivolity.

[GrimFinger]

(07-08-2010 08:41 AM)Bytor of the Snowdogs Wrote:  If the Feds would enforce the laws they themselves have produced, then there wouldn't be the need for such frivolity.

Whether the Federal government enforces Federal laws to suit the opinion of the States (or just a particular state) or not, States are not automatically free and justified to then usurp authority which does not properly and constitutionally lie with them. Years ago, when then South Carolina Governor Jim Hodges threatened to stop shipments of nuclear waste from entering the state, what he proposed to do would have been an intrusion into what was clearly a Federal matter. Anyone else threatening to stop nuclear waste shipments would have been viewed to be some kind of terrorist. Just because he didn't like how the Federal government was doing things did not fabricate out of thin air for him non-existent authority.

State governments often whine about the Federal government intruding into their domains of power, but they sure as Hell seem to always be wanting to illegally expand their own authority, the Constitution be damned.

Technically speaking, a state's government is only a portion of what collectively constitutes the State. Furthermore, where the sovereignty of the several States of the Union is concerned, the type of sovereignty that was relegated to them, with regard to our Federal Republic via the United States Constitution, is something called clipped sovereignty. The States, either individually or collectively, do not sit on par with the Federal government in certain matters.

Immigration law and immigration enforcement are not domains of individual states any more than national defense is. Certainly, the Constitution can be amended to change the constitutional balance of power and to confer such power upon the States, but until we do that, then it hasn't happened, and accordingly, they don't have such power. My own state sure as Hell does not have authority over immigration, and neither does Arizona. The States are cognate and co-equal with one another, but not with the Federal government in the area of law that is immigration law.

Furthermore, if Arizona can legislate at will in matters of immigration in this instance, what other instances can it legislate at will in, where immigration is concerned? Each state having its own immigration scheme, and the Federal government having a separate immigration scheme, would never work, and would make the current immigration problem look like a model of efficiency.

If you do not address the core, underlying problems, then no amount of immigration law band-aids will fix things. Instead, we squander billions of dollars on simple-minded fence. The vast majority of illegal immigrants are not our enemies. That they violate our laws, did they ever pledge fealty to our laws? Is it their fault that we can't - or won't - enforce such laws? Why go to so much trouble to enforce a bunch of half ass laws that are not going to end the problem. The migrating people simply adapt. They improvise. That's what human beings do. Our own people manipulate loopholes in our laws, so why would we expect others to not do the same thing?

Arizona is a single State. It is not our Federal republic.

[Bytor of the Snowdogs]

First off, just because American citizens flaunt the laws of this country when they can, it does not mean we should turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants doing the same. I find it insane to suggest that because one man does something, it should be expected for others to do so.

The fact of the matter is, the Federal Government has left the poor citizens to fend for themselves in the face of a burgeoning epidemic. If it has become so politically inncorrect for the Fed to enforce the laws of this country's immigration policy, then others less ashamed to do what's right must be found. If that leads to States enforcing laws already on the books then so be it. It's not like the current laws that exist forbade States from arresting illegals immigrants for their violation of the laws. Far from it. The problem lies with the Federal Immigration Departments outright refusal to hold and deport through proper prosecution, these individuals unless they are high priority figures in the drug trade.

States have the right, and the duty, to detain any individual who can not provide documentation and/or proof of their citizenry status. The law Arizona passed is close to a carbon copy of the Federal one. I'm glad they took the steps they did, else it would be business as usual at the capitol. By passing the law on a State level they have effectively brought the whole thing to the forefront of today's politics. I only hope that we are not so blinded by political correctness to do the right thing.

Here in MA, most of the people believe that illegal immigrants pose no threat to our country or our ways of life. They of course are wrong. I'm sure the view would change if suddenly we became the per capita leader in kidnapping and abduction. Just a few States away in RI the enforcement of immigration laws is a whole lot tougher. But again, the Federal department that deals with deportation processes still refuses to take custody of those arrested and charged by local and State police.

We go to war in the Middle East. We perform the duties of world wide police force. We dictate policy to foriegn establishments. Yet we refuse to acknowledge the fact that we are currently being invaded by an unarmed force of foriegners that have no want or intention to do what's in the best interest of this country. Some of them are even out to do this country irreperable harm. I would rather see a State willing to identify and tackle a problem such as this, than to see ignorance prevail for it's popularity.

Illegal immigrants place an undue burden and stress upon the middleclass system. They take jobs out of the hands of American citizens. The drive down the availability, and cause a rise in the prices rental properties. There is a proven link between illegal immigrant populations and violent crime. Not to mention the burden they represent upon the social services offered by the country that are paid for by taxes gained from American wallets. They export American money to their homelands, while true citizens are forced to pay for health coverage. Yet here we are, living with the duality that the Fed can demand that Americans prove they hold adequate insurance coverage or be fined for non-compliance, but the State of Arizonia shouldn't be allowed to ask for proof of legal residency.

When confronted with this particular problem I will always side with those trying to do the right thing. In this case, The State of Arizonia.

The Federal Government has meddled in State politics for forever and a day. It's about time that some State stood up and gave them a taste of their own medicine.

[GrimFinger]

The right thing? Are you talking about law, or about what's right?

The State of Arizona is no trying to do what is right. Is that your idea of what the right thing to do is?

Our way of life? Which way of life, since we have many here in this nation.

Congress must balance many interests, when it deals with immigration issues. Show me where the Constitution empowers individual states, like Arizona, to have power over immigration. It doesn't, of course. So, where does Arizona derive such authority? By illegally usurping it.

What's inherently evil about sending money to one's loved ones back in Mexico? Money gets sent to many countries.

I did not state that because one man does something, it should be expected for others to do so. What I said was, our own people manipulate loopholes in our laws, so why would we expect others to not do the same thing? They should do as we say, not as we do?

It isn't going to matter what laws are passed, if the core problems remain unaddressed. It is not a blind migration that is taking place. It happens for reasons that matter to the people who choose to migrate. You can't fix it simply through deportations and incarceration. That will never work.

Where are you going to incarcerate them all?

It's not an invasion that we are experiencing. That label is applied to demonize in the context of the immigration debate that is ongoing. The vast majority of them simply want a better life. Will an influx of immigrants impact supply and demand in various sectors? Sure, but it isn't all a negative thing, at all. Far from it, in fact.

People are people. People create all kinds of problems, always have, always will. A growing population is better than a shrinking one.

http://population-awareness.net/older.html

Of the continents with major populations, North America has the least population. The United States of America has around 4 1/2% of the world's population.

If you were able to successfully deport every illegal immigrant tomorrow, you would simply create an economic morass and a humanitarian crisis. As such, it would hardly be the "right' thing to do.

Why do you want a mass expulsion scheme, anyway? That's the kind of crap that Libyan leader Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi endorses his Libya.

Immigrants taking jobs is the same old broken record that has been playings since before either of my grandfathers were born.

[Bytor of the Snowdogs]

I do not endorse full scale mass exportations of illegals. I do however support the people of Arizona in their attempt to stem the flow of illegals into this country. You say we can't solve the crisis with laws unless we first do something about the root causes of the migrators. Unforunately, we can do little about the corruption and poverty of other countries.

My plan would call for all current illegals to be made legal and I would begin construction of a so called killing zone at the border to Mexico. A wall and a fence, and everything caught between headed toward our side shot dead upon sight.

Yeah, I know, I know...., I'm crazy.

The thing is this country cannot continue to prosper if we are constantly under siege by people who only wish for a better life. If things are so bad in their homelands, then let them fight for their freedoms there, or enter the country legally and at a sustainable rate. Send diplomatic pleas for those countries to change the way the treat their own people. Help those countries find better ways to create jobs and establish a real economic platform. Don't just allow countries to encourage migration to the U.S.A. by it's less than wanted citizenry. We are not the worlds welfare program.

[GrimFinger]

(07-09-2010 10:34 AM)Bytor of the Snowdogs Wrote:  I do not endorse full scale mass exportations of illegals. I do however support the people of Arizona in their attempt to stem the flow of illegals into this country. You say we can't solve the crisis with laws unless we first do something about the root causes of the migrators. Unforunately, we can do little about the corruption and poverty of other countries.

My plan would call for all current illegals to be made legal and I would begin construction of a so called killing zone at the border to Mexico. A wall and a fence, and everything caught between headed toward our side shot dead upon sight.

Yeah, I know, I know...., I'm crazy.

The thing is this country cannot continue to prosper if we are constantly under siege by people who only wish for a better life. If things are so bad in their homelands, then let them fight for their freedoms there, or enter the country legally and at a sustainable rate. Send diplomatic pleas for those countries to change the way the treat their own people. Help those countries find better ways to create jobs and establish a real economic platform. Don't just allow countries to encourage migration to the U.S.A. by it's less than wanted citizenry. We are not the worlds welfare program.

So, the "right" way to deal with the illegal immigration problem is to implement a policy and practice of murder? So, you want an American version of the Cambodian killing fields, albeit with an immigration twist, eh?

American military personnel can't be used to implement such a plan. It would violate the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That could be amended, of course, but it would still be illegal under principles of international law.

Mexico is largely a Christian nation. Why would you want to subject them to such a scheme of persecution and summary execution?

If enacted as law, it would also be unconstitutional.

How do you think such a proposal, unconstitutional on its face, would gain the support of enough members of Congress to enact it, and to override a veto, if necessary?

If you can't do anything about the root causes of poverty and corruption in other countries, assuming those are the root causes of the mass migration in question, then why would you reasonably expect to be able to solve the problem, at all? It isn't true that we can't do anything about poverty and corruption in other countries. We are certainly limited, if we act unilaterally, but if we act in unison with the Mexican government and its people, we can certainly achieve a good bit, I think.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[GrimFinger]

http://population-awareness.net/older.html

[GrimFinger]

The overriding impact of immigrants is to strengthen and enrich American culture, increase the total output of the economy, and raise the standard of living of American citizens. Immigrants are advantageous to the United States for several reasons: (1) Since they are willing to take a chance in a new land, they are self-selected on the basis on motivation, risk taking, work ethic, and other attributes beneficial to a nation. (2) They tend to come to the United States during their prime working years (the average age is 28), and they contribute to the workforce and make huge net contributions to old-age entitlement programs, primarily Social Security. (3) Immigrants tend to fill niches in the labor market where demand is highest relative to supply, complementing rather than directly competing with American workers. (4) Many immigrants arrive with extremely high skill levels, and virtually all, regardless of skill level, bring a strong desire to work. (5) Their children tend to reach high levels of achievement in American schools and in society at large.

Source: http://www.cato.org/immigration

The Cato Institute was founded in 1977 by Edward H. Crane. It is a non-profit public policy research foundation headquartered in Washington, D.C. The Institute is named for Cato's Letters, a series of libertarian pamphlets that helped lay the philosophical foundation for the American Revolution.

The mission of the Cato Institute is to increase the understanding of public policies based on the principles of limited government, free markets, individual liberty, and peace. The Institute will use the most effective means to originate, advocate, promote, and disseminate applicable policy proposals that create free, open, and civil societies in the United States and throughout the world.

[GrimFinger]

The United States is ranked 178th for countries and dependencies by population density.

Souce: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...on_density


Clearly, there's plenty of room here for more immigrants, be they legal or illegal.

What we are accomplishing is making it harder for them to return home, when they want to go. Things are out of kilter so much, simply because we are making things worse, not better.

Building the equivalent of a population dam at the border won't work. People will simply overflow it.

Legalizing all of the illegal immigrants here now, or most of them, won't fix the issue, either. That's targeting something that isn't the actual problem. It will simply reset the counter on how many illegal immigrants we have, since with the stroke of a pen, so to speak, we make our illegal immigrants all disappear. They only disappear, however, as a matter of statistical manipulation. One minute they are illegal. The next they are legal. The people count remains the same, however, not counting the influx that continues, regardless.

Hyper-emotional political grandstanding won't fix things. If you want to take the edge off of the problem, and have the problem become less exacerbated rather than more exacerbated, then you have to approach the problem rationally.

Continually demonizing these people will not alter the fact that the demographics of the region are changing. Alienating them, pardon the pun, will only lead to destabilization of the Southwestern United States over the long run. We should be practicing a broad and expansive policy of friendship with and towards the Hispanic populations, not alienating them in a wholesale manner.

Once you legalize the millions of illegal immigrants here currently, you will alter the political balance of power further in the favor of those that you want to keep from coming here. On a purely personal level, I am just fine with legalizing them. But, if you change the way that we approach things, you can get rid of a bunch of them, and they will pay for themselves to depart, if you have a more open border. Many don't even want to become Americans. They just want a better life for themselves and their loved ones. Many are proud to be Mexicans.

Immigration continuously changes our nation. It has in the past. It is currently. And it will continue to do so in the future.

Being friends with Canadians makes sense. Being friends with Mexicans makes sense. Pissing them off will only cause a litany of headaches, and it will nurture hostility towards what we perceive to be our "culture" for generations. Political power is going to slowly accrue to these people, regardless. It always accrues to the actual population of a region, given enough time, no matter what nationality they label themselves.

People are human beings first. That's simply the way that the Good LORD made us to be. It's when we get other ideas in our heads that things start going to hell in a hand basket.

If we will welcome them with open arms, they will repay our kindness in kind. They're not out enemies, and we don't do ourselves a favor by trying like Hell to make enemies out of them, which is what unbridled alienation will eventually bring to pass. We can have Detente with Soviets and Chinese, but not Mexicans?